Hey there, well I recall a year back (think it was a yea back) you and I well had this argument with me acting as a real tosser about your preferences. An well, I do wanna bring my apologize for it, and at the same time share my thoughts on both series. I will say that both series have their strong and weak points, and both series can be enjoyed on different levels.
I will agree that in Sherlock it would be nice if we get more development for Watson and show him more as a real person, and showing that he's equally smart as Sherlock (something they did in the movies which I thought was awesome), and it's def nice that Elementary shows that how Watson is smart and almost Sherlocks equal. However on the other hand, where Elementary falls short it's on it's crime stories, because they aren't that hard to solve and don't present much of a challenge, and at times it's almost like playing a game of Clue. Where with Sherlock, I actually love how insane and borderline complex the crimes are, since it's almost playing an old school detective game where you need to assert the clues and think over everything perfectly (even though sometimes it can go bonkers. But hey, so did the books). But Elementary actually peaks on character development and interaction between the two companions as they grow closer as friends and comrades, something Sherlock does lack in several places.
I will also add that, it's nice that Elementary adds more personality to Holmes, 'cause in both the books and the BBC's Sherlock it would be nice to see some more development out of him (though I will say that having be a recovering drug addict and going to America, a place which is like drug heaven next to Amesterdam is kinda ironic). But at the same time what kinda irks me is this whole 'sexual' aspect of Sherlock in Elementary. An this kinda bugs me with American TV in general, and maybe you can explain. What is their fear with having a character be asexual, since that's who Holmes is. In the books he's this dandy man (but that's 'cause of the era it was written), but he's still asexual. He doesn't care for love, no romances or women, to him the case is what's most important. An yet here we have him boning hot chicks, is this like some sort of law in AMerican television that the can't have characters who are asexual s. I've seen this in many shows like House, Numbers, Dexter and it just drives me nuts.
Which brings me to my issue with Moriarty in Elementary, is that the whole 'romance' aspect feels almost sexist in a way, and it's not 'cause we can't have two smart people be in love. It's 'cause, it just feels really tacked on and because they both are good looking. Frankly, you could have easily removed that aspect, kept she's this woman who wants to destroy Holmes because he threatens her organization, and that would have been perfect. Even when she uses this 'romance' against him, it still feels tacked on.
An actually, this is kinda my issue with the show is that, it kinda feels like a crime drama, with the Holmes mask on it. I mean, you have some fun dialogue, some good interaction between the two, even development an etc. But remove that mask, and it becomes a rather boring and cliched TV series, with the Sherlock Holmes brand on it. There is a TV series called "The Mentalist", I don't know if you ever seen it. But that kinda felt more like Sherlock Holmes to me than Elementary does.
So yeah, as I said while both shows have good things, they also have minuses with 'em but they are both fun. I will still stick with Sherlock, but hey I was wrong to judge Elementary so quickly thinking it was just an American knock off, 'cause it turned out to be fun. AN I will say, that both actors in Elementary do have some nice charisma and looks like they always had fun on set (though with Lucy Liu I swear she was only taken to get the guys in, because of how attractive she is, or 'cause her carrier has ended ages ago and she'll do anything for a paycheck.), and well I also really loved the Season 3 of Sherlock, and really hoping they'll bring back Moriarty, 'cause I really loved him and think they can do some more with him ('cause that was my gripe with the book is that he was barely used. Oh sure, he was 'mentioned', but we barely knew anything about it aside from the last book).
I'm gonna call ya out on this. I watched the first and second ep of Elementary and found it more Sherlock light, or close to Hipster type of Sherlock. I did like they gave Watson more of a charterer and personality, but I'd say the gender change was rather pointless (since you could have given him just as much character just by keeping him male. An well throwing someone as attractive Lucy Liu there just creates this feeling that she's gonna be a love interest at some point), not helped by having Moriarty be a woman. Since all it does is create this pointless 'romance' subplot between Moriarty and Holmes (which actually comes off kinda sexist when you think about, since the only reason she even goes after Holmes is 'cause she finds the hots for him, in some shape or form. Let's toss out the idea of her having a criminal empire and Sherlock being in her way, or hell having the BBC idea that he was just bored as saw Sherlock as the perfect challenge), and just throwing Watson into the mix. I'll also say the crimes are kinda easy to figure out (Specially since it's aimed at the American audience, I ain't surprised, since least 75% of American viewers need things spelled out for 'em.) I will admit, I find their take on SHerlock interesting, since unlike the BBC version, he isn't a high functioning psychopath but..mm..I guess more ADD or something along those lines. Though, it was head scratching that they decided to leave the "he's a drug addict" which was in the books, but I don't know, that was just kinda..mmm...awkward in a way. I mean, in the books it made sense since he used heroine when he was bored an needed to shut down his brain. I guess what it comes down too, is that Elementary has some interesting stuff, but all in all I'd be hard pressed to say it's better than BBC's Sherlock, since at times Elementary feels like Dr.House solving crimes, while at other times it feels like every other American crime show (CSI, Numbers, Monk an etc). I mean, it's def worth a watch, but I'm still gonna say that BBC Sherlock is least several pages ahead of Elementary.
Also a more direct response: "I watched the first and second ep of Elementary" First problem. You formulated a entire opinion of a show with over 20 episodes by the first 2? You realize in a show like that, things are supposed to start light. Cases are supposed to ease the audience in before tackling the bigger stuff.
"just creates this feeling that she's gonna be a love interest at some point" This logic is saying because she's female she's going to be a love interest. That has never, and will never be the case. It has been made very clear. In fact, BBC Sherlock has treated it more like a romance than Elementary has. They constantly queerbait the audience and crack gay jokes about Sherlock and Watson and it really degrades the character, in my opinion.
"which actually comes off kinda sexist when you think about, since the only reason she even goes after Holmes is 'cause she finds the hots for him" Moriarty isn't just Moriarty. She's IRENE ADDLER. She is 'THE Woman', and she's not degraded to being some S&M queen with hardly any actual personality. Also, no, she doesn't like him because 'he's hot'. That's completely rude of you to degrade a character like that just because she's a woman. She liked him because he was the most intelligent man she had EVER met in her life, and he was drawn to her for the same reason, her baffling and amazing mind. God forbid two people like each other for their personalities, right? Pretty sure that's how BBC Sherlock showed Irene Addler and Sherlock, they totally had a mental connection- oh wait no it was just a lot of flirting because they found each other hot. Hm. Something's wrong here.
" Let's toss out the idea of her having a criminal empire and Sherlock being in her way" What are you even talking about? She DOES have a criminal Empire. She has TORN SHERLOCK APART with it. She is dangerous, even in jail, she is 100% capable of manipulation and getting her way. She's managed to break out of top security confinements, keep in contact with her organizations, and she is completely ruthless. She's even stated how mysogynistic people are in assuming all the big criminals have to be male, and has a male representing her in order to make her clients 'more comfortable'.
Sherlock himself just doesn't work for the character either, in BBC I mean. This man is supposed to have a lot of charisma and the ability to make others trust him, he's able to blend in and figure people out easily. A sociopath with aspergers is clearly not capable of this, as they are not able to read other peoples' social queues which I feel is absolutely VITAL to Sherlock Holmes. With the ADHD version, it feels more accurate because while he can fully understand what people are doing, he doesn't know why, nor does he know how to be like them. He can pretend without being a hammy actor, he does have a heart, but he just doesn't level with these people at all.
A. I doubt it'll get any better as this trainwreck goes on, if the 1st and 2nd case are soe asy to solve, then others will be on levels of finding out the villain in Scooby-Doo
B. That's kinda the whole point, the two are very close friends (though in this day and age thinking of two guys being very close friends and consdering that gay, is kinda dumb), and also it's not logic, it's how formulaic this is, and so far I've yet to be proven wrong when it comes to. Frankly, there was no point to have her be a female, again this same stuff could have been done y even a male character. But oh wait, we have Lucy Liu (yeah, great choice, the same chick who was in such 'classics' as Charlies Angels 1-2 and the Cleaner.), so claiming at some point they won't be a romance between 'em is laughable as hell.
C. I don't give a damn if she's the Queen of England herself, the very idea of there being ANY romance between the two is a massive load of crap. I honestly wanna find the prick who came up with this and smack him across the head, you wanna have a female Moriarty? Fine (oh yeah, great idea Irene Adler, a character who barely had anything in the books as well, yeah great choice) but you can do it without having the whole 'oh she likes him' bs. Hell, just by having Sherlock be a threat to her organization would be enough, but nooooo! Let's toss in the 'she likes him, because she's smart like her' why not.
D.Oh huzzah, and while we're at it, let's add the "Women are power!" thing, haven't seen that ina while and then see that quickly get shot in a nearby allyeway.
Oooo..Sherlock has a heart, I suddenly care. Oh wait, that's me trying not to laugh at that statement. As I recall, Sherlock never had a heart, or showed much emotion aside from solving cases and finding a puzzle worthy of his time. He was fully de-tached from people and everyday normal life. An guess what, BBC Sherlock gave that, while Elementary turned into a laughable soap opera.
Nah, that was Hound of Baskervilles, but they probably did more. It's just bad all around. Bad acting, super easy laughable puzzles even on hard mode, Sherlock just kinda going "Oh, that's magic, we're time traveling, I'll uhhh, explain that later" and then never explaining it... sfdsafdfsdggsdfgs.
I guess another reason I'm so miffed over this issue is because I plan to write something for this image you see, a full episode, and I am so nervous that I'm going to get all the BBC Sherlock fans down my throat because I happen to love something they don't understand. I really want to show my skill as a writer and as a fan of criminal investigation (As a child I studied forensics all the time, along with psychology) and I just don't want people to toss me aside in favor of BBC Sherlock. When in reality, I am just a fan of Sherlock Holmes in general, in most media forms and for most audiences, be it adult, readers, children, Americans, etc.
Huh, and here I thought a game where Moriarty comes back from the dead thanks to dark magic was dumb, well ya learn something new each day.
Hmmmm....Well, I can only tell ya what I told one of me mates who was writing a story himself, and was worried bout fans getting down his throat: The best ya can do is just go on with your project and ignore all those tossers, 'cause not all fans are arseholes, some might not like the source material, but enjoy the story itself, or even getting interested enough to check said source material and find out if they'll like it or not.
Just my five cents on this topic, you can take it or leave it *shrug*. Frankly, I'm interested to read it, even with me not being a big fan of Elementary.
yeaaaah...having read trough the load, I'm gonna stay by what I said. Elementary is nothing more but a huge load of hipster garbage, with all the mystery/crime solving equaled to the amount of a game Clue, then again as I said this is aimed at the American audience, so I shouldn't be surprised by how low the quality is, since it's typical with American crime shows in general, and this isn't any better. I'm honestly surprised that any self-respecting Sherlock Fan would give this crap a chance, instead of laughing it out of the room. Then again, in the past we had idiots who liked Sherlock Holmes in the 22nd century, or even Sherlock Hound, so I shouldn't all be that surprised.
Actually, this isn't anything Anti-America related, but I don't recall you guys ever producing a crime show that wasn't laughable/insulting or just down right stupid on every possible logical form. An sadly Elementary isn't any better, and I'd say it's quite on the same level as CSI.
Stepping in right now. Last time I checked. (Which was a year ago, so this information may very well no longer apply) The number one crime drama in the UK was Law & Order: UK. An addaption of the U.S.'s most popular crime drama for British audience.
I want to add that while I respect other peoples' opinions, I do not appreciate you degrading me as a person just because you might not like a thing as much as you like another. You insulted my intelligence by implying as an American I can only understand 'dumbed down' things, insulted me as a fan of Sherlock Holmes (since CHILDHOOD mind you) by using the term 'self respected fan' while insulting another show I liked as a child, inadvertently called me a hipster, and to top it all off, insulted something based on the fact that it was American which is technically a form of racism.
You can like or dislike whatever you want, but don't go around insulting other people for it. It's rude, egotistical, and downright hurtful.
Okay, I'm sorry for the hurtful words, and well the fact I implied that because it's made in American, meaning that it's dumbed down because of that, as well as I apologize for well the long response I gave to yours, which might sound mean spirited in some way or fashion. I guess I'll try an give Elementary another chance, and maybe it'll grow on me, but I doubt I'll like it as much as I like BBC Sherlock. Just..I don't know, whenever I see some people say "Elementary is better than BBC Sherlock" part of me just wants to end 'em. But yeah, I bring my apologize.
It's a matter of opinion. The problem right now is that a lot of BBC Sherlock fans that I know barely ever give Elementary a chance and base their opinions on the same 3 facts:
1- It's American and therefor inferior 2- Gender swapping (Gender should not ever matter as long as the CHARACTER is there) 3- Time and time again it's always the same thing: "I saw one/two episodes and it's not Sherlock."
I was once like that, I admit, and I am incredibly ashamed of myself for it because later I found myself respecting the writing a lot more than I do in Sherlock.
Trust me, when they promised Watson would not be a romantic interest for Sherlock, they 100% meant it. She's walked around the house in her pajamas which is essentially a shirt and boxers and neither of them even cared, because they are simply friends who are comfortable with each other.
No, let's just have giant cinematic technique thrown at the audience's face with tons of special effects and 0 time to actually solve anything while dragging the bridge character that has always been meant to represent the audience around on a leash to make the main character look more impressive.
BBC Sherlock is good. But it's got a lot of really nasty flaws, it doesn't matter where it came from. The writing is often insulting, degrading, and it treats the audience like a bunch of morons who can't figure anything out on their own.
Yeah, sadly that's how it was always in the books, Sherlock was always the one meant to appear impressive while Watson was dragged around, so you can say I'm an idiot. But that's how it was in the books, and they pretty much did the same in the BBC one. So there's that.
I never said the show was perfect (okay, I may came off like that, which is my bad), and I know it has flaws. But I'm still gonna say it's better than in Elementary, also again that's how it was in the books, you'd always get presented witha confusing mystery and it would be Sherlock who would explain HOW it went down. So, you can say they just stuck to close to the books.
Actually Watson in the books was treated as the character the audience was meant to connect to. He was also a representation of the human side that Sherlock was lacking, thus completing their bond as friends and as characters, as one is pure logic while the other is pure emotion, and from each other they learn and apply. Watson grows to be more investigative like Sherlock (Hound of the Baskervilles) and Sherlock, with Watson's nagging of course, begins to see things he didn't quite see otherwise.
Watson, essentially, brings the pieces to us and to Sherlock. Sherlock puts them together, but essentially, the point of Sherlock Holmes was not about Sherlock solving the case, but about us following the mystery. And Watson is the one who connects us to Sherlock. Without him, we would be incredibly lost. Watson was strict, polite, intelligent, steadfast, curious, and open to new possibilities.
He was never an underdog. He was the other half of Sherlock. And BBC's vision of him... I love him to death, but he does not couple well with the Sherlock they provided. Sherlock overshadows him, belittles him, and no matter what friendship speeches he gives, he simply does not show enough respect for this man. He claims his friends hate him, acts like he's only meant to be around to be impressed, and always seems to treat Watson in a "silly simple Watson" attitude.
Watson is supposed to be more than capable of holding his own, no he can't solve a case like Sherlock, but he can figure things out that even Sherlock cannot. And he shouldn't be belittled for it.
Also this season was really rushed and disappointing, in my opinion. It feels like it overshadowed the entirety of the previous seasons.
I've never watched Elementary (mostly out of lack of interest), and I'm much more of a BBC Sherlock kind of gal, but this is very cute. ^^ I like the colors you used for them. By the way, what does Watson's cutie mark mean?
I find people who say they are "Sherlock" fans but refuse to give Elementary a chance to be incredibly close-minded, sorry. You wont know if you like a thing until you give it a chance, and a lot of my friends who were HUE Sherlock fans, INCLUDING MYSELF, enjoyed Elementary more than Sherlock when they actually sat down and bothered to watch it. Don't assume you wont be interested until you actually give it a chance. Just one episode, it's only 45 minutes, just give it a chance because I swear you'll be hooked the moment he crashes a car.
As for her cutie mark, it's a medicinal flower, because of her talent in caring for others.
Ya know what? You're right. I guess I was just being silly. At some point, I'll watch an episode and see how I like it. After all, I've always been for new variations on classics (I'm one of the few people who actually like Tim Burton's version of Dark Shadows).
Also, I didn't know there was such a thing as a medicinal flower. That's neat.
I disagree but I respect your opinion. I prefer the bromance relationship to the male female relationship... At least early on, the actors didn't seem to have much chemistry together, where I found that Bumberbatch and Freeman did. Maybe it's improved over time and I just havem't seen it lol
.... I love the shading on the manes and tails ;-; <3
jitterbugjive.tumblr.com/post/… These are my reasons for liking Elementary more. Honestly I don't think 'gender' should apply as a reason. I want something that feels more real and true to the originals, and I'm not too fond of Watson being a submissive and constantly bullied individual because Watson is supposed to represent US, the audience. And if he's constantly being pushed and dragged around and made the but of the joke, what does that make us?
I suppose i need to reread the stories. I never got that Watson was us. I found that Sherlock's Watson, while he was kind of bullied by Sherlock, he could act on his own when needed, like Shooting the cabbie in the first episode. Reading over, you make some very interesting points. I may give Elem another shot. While the length of Sherlock doesn't bother me and I enjoy the autistic Holmes myself, I can see why you and certainly others can find it unappealing.
There's a lot I could say. But needn't bother you with it lol
Thanks for the analysis and taking the time to reply. I'll see if it works for me
Watson progresses really well in Elementary actually. She does save Sherlock's life on more than one occasion, he gives her cases to work on alone, and eventually she learns how to fight and defend herself really well. The books implied Watson was a character who was trying to learn Sherlock's techniques and gradually getting the hang of it to a point where even he acknowledged Watson was somewhat impressive by his own standards. I find his willingness to shoot someone for Sherlock in the very first episode to be a bit 'too soon', honestly. He's not exactly on the closest terms with Sherlock, and to be willing to kill someone for him so early in the game seems very un-like the often more timid and polite Watson of the stories. Not only that but being a doctor in the past makes the harm of others an even bigger issue for him.